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Do you think Aliens have religion?
#11
(01-30-2011, 03:23 AM)Tazeden Wrote: Laurie, I don't believe a society, a healthy society, can actually outgrown religion. Religion may lose its edge how we saw over centuries on earth, but I don't believe it can or should vanish in any forum of higher society Smile

Why? You don't believe that a person can be good, have good morals and principles of their own volition, without some 'deity' tells them how to behave? Do people really need this crutch?

Moreover, you really believe that a 'Deity' who says this could be a mentor for humankind?

Quote:Kill Men, Women, and Children
"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT
)

...or this...

Quote:The Angel of Death
My angel will go before you and bring you to the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites, and Jebusites; and I will wipe them out. (Exodus 23:23 NAB
)

Or, how about this?

Quote:where you were created, in the land of your origin, I will judge you. I will pour out my indignation upon you, breathing my fiery wrath upon you, I will hand you over to ravaging men, artisans of destruction. You shall be fuel for the fire, your blood shall flow throughout the land. You shall not be remembered, for I, the LORD, have spoken. (Ezekiel 21:33-37 NAB)

This was a Warmonger (these wars were all 'turf wars'), and this so called god was capricious, racist and murderous. I was raised without the crutch of religion and I think my reputation speaks for itself.

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#12
The flaw in your argument is the fact that you judge using "human" standards. If you are religious then you believe that there is at least one being that is both immortal and omnipotent. This being created humanity and will determine the fate of each individual based on whether or not they followed the holy laws properly. Using that logic your perspective is hopelessly flawed. You cannot possibly see the big picture based on your extremely limited perspective. How could you ever even begin to think like a being that perceives all reality at once, which sees both the past and future as effortlessly as it sees the present?

To bring this down to a more human level I’ll use the domestication of dogs as an example. In the past when dogs were still more wolf than dog they followed along with the nomadic human bands. The wolves that followed did so because they got food and a support mechanism from being near the humans. For example if a wolf was killed and its cubs orphaned the humans would take them in and raise them. This helped insure the survival of the pack. However, the wolves and wolf pups that were too aggressive were killed by the humans. Now I know for a fact the wolves could not possibly understand why. It simply was the way things were for them. In the end wolves were turned into what we now know as dogs; a domestic species that has thrived in every part of the world where humans exist, while their cousins the wolves (that didn’t embrace the humans) have nearly been driven to extinction.

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On a related note I would imagine the vast differences in alien races will cause similar differences in perspective and who knows how we could solve those types of issues.
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#13
Another flaw is that you simply quote the bible. Religion is more. Or do you say only Christians have found religion and everyone else is playing "hug-the-tree" (to put it extreme)? Furthermore, you only quoted the OT. The NT has some nicer words than the quoted passages Smile

And you jump to conclusions that I maybe don't believe human beings could be morale without religion. This is wrong. What I believe, though, is that religion in general offered people a way to deal with each other in harmony (at the cost of being more hostile to foreigners perhaps), but it is no coincidence that "the golden rule" can be found in religion and that religious played such an important part in the social evolution of human beings. It still does, although to a lot lesser degree than in the past admittedly.
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#14
(01-30-2011, 07:23 AM)Wally Wrote: The flaw in your argument is the fact that you judge using "human" standards.

It’s not a flaw from where I stand, and surprise! I AM a human, so are you!

Quote:If you are religious then you believe that there is at least one being that is both immortal and omnipotent. This being created humanity and will determine the fate of each individual based on whether or not they followed the holy laws properly.

Only if one believes that this mythical ‘being’ created humanity, and the jury, when I last looked, was still out on that controversy! I don’t believe your theories on how I will be judged. And, like it or not, millions of others don’t believe in it either.

Quote:Using that logic your perspective is hopelessly flawed. You cannot possibly see the big picture based on your extremely limited perspective.

This is the typical and arrogant nonsense that all religious fanatics trot out! I challenge you to prove me wrong regarding this theory of yours, because that’s all it is! It is you that is hopelessly flawed in believing that you have the right to push your religion onto me by method that wouldn’t stand up in a court of law, or a debate! You have absolutely nil evidence to support your religious rantings. None whatsoever!

Quote:How could you ever even begin to think like a being that perceives all reality at once, which sees both the past and future as effortlessly as it sees the present?

Utter dribble! Who are you to decide what is reality? Where is your evidence for such nonsense? You don’t have a scintilla of evidence to back up your religious scriptures.

Quote:To bring this down to a more human level I’ll use the domestication of dogs as an example. In the past when dogs were still more wolf than dog they followed along with the nomadic human bands. The wolves that followed did so because they got food and a support mechanism from being near the humans. For example if a wolf was killed and its cubs orphaned the humans would take them in and raise them. This helped insure the survival of the pack. However, the wolves and wolf pups that were too aggressive were killed by the humans. Now I know for a fact the wolves could not possibly understand why. It simply was the way things were for them. In the end wolves were turned into what we now know as dogs; a domestic species that has thrived in every part of the world where humans exist, while their cousins the wolves (that didn’t embrace the humans) have nearly been driven to extinction.

So, because I feed my Dogs, and because you tell me this quaint fable about Wolves, I must believe that some capricious, war-mongering, psychopath created and feeds me?

Just as a point of interest, I’d love to know who you designate as the witness to the Garden of Eden fable!

Believe in your ‘god’ by all means, but don’t try to put me on any psychobabble guilt trip to try to make me believe in it, because you’d fail miserably. When ‘God’ made man, she was only joking!

I am highly offended by your post! I am an Atheist, as is my right. How dare you try to judge, or analyze me! My beliefs are as sacred to me, as yours are to you... However, if you want a debate on religion, and it's inconsistencies and atrocities, and not to mention its numerous contradictions, then by all means, lets start a thread and debate it!

But be warned, I take no prisoners!
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#15
(01-30-2011, 07:31 AM)Tazeden Wrote: Another flaw is that you simply quote the bible. Religion is more. Or do you say only Christians have found religion and everyone else is playing "hug-the-tree" (to put it extreme)? Furthermore, you only quoted the OT. The NT has some nicer words than the quoted passages.

So, should we pick and chose from ‘religion’ only that which is palatable to us? Should we be hypocrites, and pass over passages that are inconsistent, or clearly nonsensical, or even those that show this so called creator to aid and abet murder? I just ask, you understand, so that I can get a clearer picture of the religious mind, and how it works! Tongue

Quote:And you jump to conclusions that I maybe don't believe human beings could be morale without religion. This is wrong. What I believe, though, is that religion in general offered people a way to deal with each other in harmony (at the cost of being more hostile to foreigners perhaps), but it is no coincidence that "the golden rule" can be found in religion and that religious played such an important part in the social evolution of human beings. It still does, although to a lot lesser degree than in the past admittedly.

I’m sorry if I misread you Tazeden. Of course, you’re right in that some of their teachings are sound and moral; however, I do believe that any right-minded society would come to similar conclusions at some stage in their evolution; and after all, some of us believe that that is why we are here in any event, to evolve, and grow spiritually.

At all times, you at least have been decent and honourable, and polite in your defense of your stance on religion. Thank you for that. Smile
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#16
(01-30-2011, 07:53 AM)Laurie Wrote: So, because I feed my Dogs, and because you tell me this quaint fable about Wolves, I must believe that some capricious, war-mongering, psychopath created and feeds me?

Just as a point of interest, I’d love to know who you designate as the witness to the Garden of Eden fable!

Believe in your ‘god’ by all means, but don’t try to put me on any psychobabble guilt trip to try to make me believe in it, because you’d fail miserably. When ‘God’ made man, she was only joking!

I am highly offended by your post! I am an Atheist, as is my right. How dare you try to judge, or analyze me! My beliefs are as sacred to me, as yours are to you... However, if you want a debate on religion, and it's inconsistencies and atrocities, and not to mention its numerous contradictions, then by all means, lets start a thread and debate it!

But be warned, I take no prisoners!

Is there a chance you read too much into this? I can't see where he tried to convert you to any believe nor do I see a connection between the domestication of wolves and a warmonger god.
For someone trying to convince people of their unbiased view you definitely say harsh word against evolutionary explanations like the domestication in this case.

And while this isn't the thread for this I am curious what human society without religion worked well. Communism perhaps?
I, myself, would rather call myself an agnostic, because atheist can be as nasty as "believers".
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#17
(01-30-2011, 08:17 AM)Laurie Wrote: So, should we pick and chose from ‘religion’ only that which is palatable to us? Should we be hypocrites, and pass over passages that are inconsistent, or clearly nonsensical, or even those that show this so called creator to aid and abet murder? I just ask, you understand, so that I can get a clearer picture of the religious mind, and how it works! Tongue

I have no idea how a mind like that works, because I don't believe in any god ^^ But yes, I think that we should adapt the things that are good and forget about the rest. That is some other kind of evolution, a better one than many religions proved so far Smile

Quote:I’m sorry if I misread you Tazeden. Of course, you’re right in that some of their teachings are sound and moral; however, I do believe that any right-minded society would come to similar conclusions at some stage in their evolution; and after all, some of us believe that that is why we are here in any event, to evolve, and grow spiritually.

At all times, you at least have been decent and honourable, and polite in your defense of your stance on religion. Thank you for that. Smile

Yes, maybe you are right. Maybe we could outgrow religion. I still like to believe that it is important in the beginning at least ^^

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#18
IMO And I'm a jew, Everyone should do what's best for themselves.
I believe in god, but I do not let the Torah dictate my life.

I believe that religion exists not only as a means to believing in a higher power but more for the sake of creating order in our lives. For some, religion creates relief and comfort from the troubles of life. for others, religion stands as something to be feared because once you're a believer, you signed a contract to obey every little rule that exists in your religion.
So, Laurie is right to be offended by anyone who tries to make her believe something she doesn't know or care about in the first place.
and Wally, well, wally is right to believe(for himself), but shouldn't preach.
Personally, I have Atheist friends, moreover one of my best friends was highly religious and suddenly one day he decided to step out of the closet, so to speak and become gay and atheist. I don't have a problem with either views of life.

Live and let live right?

About outgrowing religion, I think it depends on what road the community wants to take. it is certain that a community based on technology and advancement will someday abandon religion and maybe develop some other "code of conduct" but a community that is based on family and friendship and other aspects of human life, might have an existing religion but not all of them will believe in it. As I was saying before, Religion provides comfort, for many and maybe not for all, but it does for some.

~Xeo
Alive2Play - A website for gamers!
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#19
LOL
Guys I hate to break it to you but I’m a confirmed Atheist, I do not believe in any sort of higher being at all. I am simply pointing out the logical flaws that are inherent in assigning human values and morals to a being that is capable of creating a universe. The values and motives of such a being could no more be interpreted by me than an ant could interpret my values and motives.

I do find it amusing thought that everyone automatically assumed that I was a devout believer simply because I see the inherent value in religion (whether I subscribe to their belief systems or not). Personally I see no need for atheists to spread intolerance in any form; if you don’t want to believe fine, but you shouldn't get offended when others do. As Xeo said live and let live is the best policy.

I will close by saying, if I offended anyone with this or another post it was most definitely not my intention.
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#20
I sincerely hope they don't. There's nothing worse for us humans than religion or maybe the fact we cannot tolerate others' beliefs. We've waged wars and done unspeakable things to fellow humans in the name of a god or more.
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